Welcome back to the Beat! I open up with a lightbulb moment that we’ll get back to later as we break down the fights.
So, we haven’t been covering the Bounty Hunters side episodes on Discovery+ for a variety of reasons, one of which is “if I’m getting a free trial I’m going to wait until the entire season is posted and binge it in one shot.” But with the first four bounty tournaments aired and the last two bracketed out, that means we know all the robots who competed in the tournament. And with that I thought: “Out of the current last 16, are there robots that are or are not competing in the bounty tournaments?” So I checked to see who was in and here’s what I found. 7 bots (including Tombstone and Witch Doctor which were both bounty bots) of the current 16 remaining competed in Bounty Hunters. They are:
Bloodsport (fights Tantrum in R16)
Gigabyte (fights Hydra)
Mammoth (fights Shatter!)
Rotator (fights End Game)
Valkyrie (fights Whiplash)
Tombstone (as bounty) (fights Black Dragon)
Witch Doctor (as bounty) (fights SawBlaze)
The important things: All seven were in their own fights—what I mean is you don’t have both combatants of one fight in a bounty tournament. The only round of 16 matchup without a robot in Bounty Hunters is Uppercut vs. Ribbot. So with that, we’ll hold that card accountable and see how well it matches up to the quarterfinalists, and see if Bounty Hunters accidentally spoiled the final 8. With that, to the fights!
7. SawBlaze vs. 23. Witch Doctor
SawBlaze: 3-1 (W, KO 2:30 vs. Whiplash; L, KO 1:08 vs. Uppercut; W, JD 3-0 vs. Rusty; R32–W, JD 3-0 vs. Kraken)
Witch Doctor: 2-2 (L, JD 2-1 vs. Hydra; L, JD 3-0 vs. Kraken; W, KO 2:40 vs. SlamMow!; R32–W, JD 3-0 vs. Skorpios)
Maybe the most likely fight you’d expect at this state in the preseason, since it’s a rematch of last year’s quarterfinals. And Jamison Go has been parsing over it ever since to prevent a reprise. Peter Abrahamson noted that one of the biggest things SawBlaze worked on for this season was moving weight forward in the bot. It wheelied a lot last year and SawBlaze is a whole lot steadier this season.
You could see that all year, including the get-go, where rather than wheelie SawBlaze scooped Witch Doctor up, pinned her, and delivered a shot to the ribs. Witch Doctor could draw sparks, but SawBlaze was winning the ground game as intended. But maybe too low, as it looked like one of the forks hit a seam which gave Witch Doctor a moment to get around, hit a wheel, get under, and somersault SawBlaze. It wasn’t the weapon but it was a start to come back and get those bigger pops in.
Once SawBlaze had reset it could pin again and keep delivering shots to that top armor/srimech on Witch Doctor. SawBlaze paid by being too close to the pulverizer, letting Witch Doctor off and getting pinned for Witch Doctor to get another flipping shot in as back and forth it went.
The first big note of damage was from the next exchange as SawBlaze got the scoop and managed to take off one of Witch Doctor’s plows. Nothing major in terms of functionality for the fight but it’s a piece missing for the damage points. Combined with cornering with a SawBlaze-controlled pulverizer and another hit towards the weapon, SawBlaze was racking points up. Even without a scoop the forks could neutralize any chance of Witch Doctor winning the ground game and pushing back against a pin, again aiming for Witch Doctor’s weapon. The middle tine was bent but it just meant SawBlaze would push in some situations rather than scoop. But less scoops meant that Witch Doctor could get some more nicks in. Unless it got turned to the side and SawBlaze could bring the hammer saw down again. And with that Witch Doctor began to smoke.
SawBlaze pushed Witch Doctor back to the pulverizer, kept pushing, kept using its weapon, and it looked like that puff of smoke was to drive, as Witch Doctor was out. It’s a KO in 2:59 as SawBlaze gets revenge and moves onto the quarerfinals.
4. Uppercut vs. 20. Ribbot
Uppercut: 3-1 (W, KO 0:25 vs. Gemini; W, KO 1:08 vs. SawBlaze; L, JD 3-0 vs. Hydra; R32–W, KO 0:33 vs. HiJinx)
Ribbot: 3-1 (W, KO 0:43 vs. Tracer; L, JD 3-0 vs. MadCatter; W, KO 0:47 vs. Axolotl; R32–W, KO 1:10 vs. Beta)
Ah, the ol’ Massachusetts engineering college battle, MIT vs. WPI. Uppercut has a Giant Bolt in the bag if they don’t win the Giant Nut thanks to the OOTAs and explosions. Ribbot hasn’t been that spectacular but has been stellar throughout. Something’s gotta give, and my guess is bad things will happen to the foam frog on top of Ribbot, undercutter or not.
I was right, as with the first hit Ribbot lost a wheel. Credit to them for charging in and continuing to charge in as Uppercut seemed to have difficulty with seams, but this already looked like the potential to get ugly. Uppercut continued to gyro as Ribbot ran into it… and lost a second wheel, and the foam frog and was in the corner, weapon stopped and dangerously close to Uppercut’s bar as the bots locked. After they did a 540, Uppercut’s weapon hit Ribbot and the pulverizer came down simultaneously as the two separated and a banner came down.
Ribbot continued to charge, turning its undercutter into an overcutter again, and Uppercut inched forward to take another piece off Ribbot, what looked like the bottom (now on top). But Uppercut was gyroing and the left wheel wasn’t moving when both wheels were actually on the ground. And were given a warning. And were counted out?!?!
Yeah, whatever in the left drive went, that was it. So even though it lost two wheels, the foam frog, and whatever else, Ribbot scores its second upset with a KO in 1:34 and a Fight of the Year candidate.
2. Bloodsport vs. 18. Tantrum
Bloodsport: 4-0 (W, KO 2:12 vs. Skorpios; W, KO 1:10 vs. End Game; W, JD 3-0 vs. Chronos; R32–W, JD 2-1 vs. Gruff)
Tantrum: 3-1 (L, KO 2:44 vs. Valkyrie; W, KO 1:13 vs. Atom #94; W, KO 2:59 vs. Gamma 9; R32–W, KO 2:30 vs. Fusion)
Bloodsport’s down their favorite blade (the tri-bar), going with more of the cross-shaped blade against Tantrum. We know Tantrum’s armor is extremely thick, so how will it hold up?
Well, from the first moment a tiny chunk of something came off of Tantrum so that looked less than ideal. But Tantrum stayed on Bloodsport as the latter looked to spin up and I have to say that Bloodsport is faster than I thought, actually able to open up the gap and get some speed though Tantrum was able to cut the distance without much damage. And then Bloodsport wasn’t spinning its weapon, and the reason looked like one of the front wedgelets got caught between the weapon and the body of the bot. This was a chance for Tantrum to do something, but good evasion from Bloodsport meant that they could keep away until the wedgelet came free. And then Tantrum slammed into the now-spinning Bloodsport and it looked like the other wedgelet was about to get lodged, but it just came off. It meant Tantrum now had the unquestioned ground advantage with its forks, and could pin Bloodsport. But Bloodsport was spinning its weapon, albeit intermittently from what it seemed, and drawing sparks with every impact. It also looked like there was an issue with Tantrum’s punching mechanism, maybe drawn over from the Fusion fight, because it wasn’t doing much spinning. But it didn’t matter as Tantrum stalked and had Bloodsport at the pulverizer, bending its srimech pipe.
Bloodsport spun back up and continued to draw sparks but wasn’t doing much damage to the thick armor of Tantrum. If anything it was damaging itself as in the last 20 seconds it had lost a wheel. Tantrum got one more pin with a couple pulverizer shots as it went the distance.
Damage: This is tough in that none of the damage was done with Tantrum’s primary weapon. But hazard damage counts, such as the srimech pipe bend. And apart from that little bit from the first exchange there wasn’t much damage done to Tantrum, but slow-mos show that they did lose their weapon from Bloodsport. So weapon beats pipe, so I go 3-2 Bloodsport.
Aggression: Tantrum was the aggressor though Bloodsport’s aggression was with the primary weapon. Intermittently. That intermittently makes it 2-1 Tantrum in my eyes.
Control: I’d give this 3-0 to Tantrum.
Either way I give the fight to Tantrum, whether 6-5 or 7-4. I would not have all the judges agree with me though, since it went to a split decision, with Derek Young and Jason Bardis (normally on the opposite side of splits) on the side of… Tantrum, which moves to the quarterfinals to take on SawBlaze.
Hydra vs. 17. Gigabyte
Hydra: 4-0 (W, JD 2-1 vs. Witch Doctor; W, JD 3-0 vs. HUGE; W, JD 3-0 vs. Uppercut; R32–W, KO 2:58 vs. HyperShock)
Gigabyte: 3-1 (L, KO 1:13 vs. Copperhead; W, KO 1:13 vs. Extinguisher; W, KO 1:15 vs. Claw Viper; R32–W, KO 2:42 vs. Malice)
(Writing “1.” still makes a list.)
Pre-fight, I was mentioning that this seems like a really bad matchup for Hydra because how do you flip a shell spinner while it’s spinning? Then Jake Ewert (via the TWR page) posted Hydra with its own version of the “De-Icer,” basically some of the HUGE bike rack cut down to keep Gigabyte at bay.
Plot twist: They never used it, Hydra just went with its biggest wedge. Apparently Gigabyte’s shell was made by Team Whyachi, so Jake Ewert has an idea of what to do with it since the materials. (Team Whyachi also makes most of the robots’ master switches.)
For Gigabyte, it’s already been a good year as the most successful full-body spinner in this iteration of BattleBots. An appearance in the season finale would definitely stamp this year as a success.
Hydra went for the box rush and, as seems to often happen, chucked the flipper and whiffed. So Gigabyte could spin up, but Hydra kept the front wedge pointed at the shell spinner, looking for its chance. But Hydra kept the push, got under and somehow got a launch off (1). It wouldn’t flip Gigabyte but it would send them into the wall to go full Beyblade. Hit the first wall then HARD into the second. Somehow it looked like Gigabyte could still spin, and now they had to because Hydra had followed up with a flip to actually get it over (2). Yes, right onto Hydra (3), but still counts. The flips and nudges were making it a bit unbalanced but Gigabyte backed away as best as it could (4, though just the get ’em over kind). Hydra pressed on for a way to end the fight (5), hitting Gigabyte off the Lexan, then continuing to hunt the 17th seed down to do it again (6). A belt had come off, and it was fortunately in a Gigabyte-controlled corner or else the pulverizer could have come down to bend Gigabyte’s srimech pipe down and probably end the fight right there. But somehow Gigabyte got up to get back in flight (7), and spun up to try and get something going to continue getting repelled (8). The spins were nice to get Hydra away and have the pulverizer come down on the flipping arm later on but no harm done (9). I’m still surprised that Hydra’s wedge was the right angle to get under and get something going (10). But Gigabyte finally caught an edge to do something to stem the tide however briefly. But the edge was the exception, not the rule (11) as Hydra stalked, and drove under (not a flip, I think, but the flipper arm was up, so I guess 12). It went to the judges, somehow, with the bonus damage of Hydra flipping itself out to the point the flipping arm stuck up. But Gigabyte wasn’t spinning either, so that looked to be a moot point.
Damage: Points against Hydra for the flipping arm being stuck up. It did get hit by the pulverizer at one point. As for Gigabyte it lost a belt and also stopped spinning. I say 3-2 Hydra.
Control: How is it not 3-0?
Aggression: Gigabyte wasn’t uber-aggressive even when it did spin up, it just stood there, or Hydra stalked it. So I go 3-0.
Hydra wins by unanimous decision.
5. Black Dragon vs. 21. Tombstone
Black Dragon: 3-1 (W, JD 2-1 vs. Kraken; W, KO 1:33 vs. Claw Viper; L, JD 3-0 vs. Copperhead; R32–W, KO 2:08 vs. SlamMow!)
Tombstone: 2-2 (L, KO 0:39 vs. End Game; W, KO 1:19 vs. Slap Box; L, KO 1:58 vs. Skorpios; R32–W, KO 2:08 vs. MadCatter)
Again, a fight that pre-season if you told me was this round or beyond, I’d totally believe you. Black Dragon’s proved last season’s Desperado title was no fluke, and their robot has proven to be a tank considering its final fight card match-up with Copperhead. Even though they lost, they’re in the round of 16, and Copperhead isn’t, so nyeh. They do get Tombstone though, getting yet another tank putting on a massive wedge. Back to that short black bar, Ray! (That’s exactly which bar Tombstone has on.)
Both bots spun up, no box rush on either side though Tombstone came forward more, looking for that flank and that side angle to grind on Black Dragon’s wedge, spinning on the spot and getting sparks each time. Tombstone came in with a bit more of a swing and was deflected upwards, getting a bit of that pop from wedge and weapon.
And this continued for an extended amount of time, not the bombastic all-out “something’s gonna take a lot of damage” you’d expect from either of these bots, but dare we say it, a driving battle. Yes, we know Black Dragon has finesse from the Minotaur fight, and the Kraken fight, and the Copperhead fight, but yes, there is some finesse in getting the right angle to slam a 72-lb. bar of metal in your opponent repeatedly. The first big shot that came in was actually weapon to weapon sending Tombstone back, then Black Dragon pushing Tombstone to cartwheel. In the post-mordem, this loosened a wire, and the big bar stopped. Yes, Black Dragon’s weapon also stopped and so it became a pushing match for the last two minutes and change. And in a pushing match? Big advantage Black Dragon.
It’s not that Black Dragon immediately started slamming Tombstone into every single wall full bore thanks to the two-wheeled drive of Tombstone proving to be elusive, but it’s not a pushing robot, as Black Dragon started to get the right angle for the heave-hos, or heaves-ho, or whatever. A couple pushes into the screws, a couple more pushes into the screws—no actual getting Tombstone into said screws, but more pushing into the corner, and generally a workmanlike performance from the Brazilian bot as it went to the judges.
Damage: It has to be 3-2 one way or the other. Tombstone delivered sparks, but sparks mean nothing. I’ll say with the wall runs 3-2 Black Dragon.
Control: 3-0 Black Dragon
Aggression: Early aggression with the weapon by Tombstone in the first minute makes this 2-1 rather than 3-0 Black Dragon.
Yes, Black Dragon wins by unanimous decision, giving the bow down to Ray. Much love on both sides. They’ll get Ribbot in the quarters.
8. Whiplash vs. 9. Valkyrie
Whiplash: 3-1 (L, KO 2:30 vs. SawBlaze; W, JD 3-0 vs. Gruff; W, JD 3-0 vs. Valkyrie; R32–W, JD 3-0 vs. HUGE)
Valkyrie: 3-1 (W, KO 2:44 vs. Tantrum; W, JD 3-0 vs. Rotator; L, JD 3-0 vs. Whiplash; R32–W, KO 1:39 vs. SubZero)
A rematch from the end of the Fight Night cards, and the only chalk match-up of the round of 16. As I wrote in my preview, I honestly don’t know what Frederick Moore could have possibly done with Valkyrie, because as good of a driver as he is, Matt Vasquez and Whiplash were on them before there was even a chance to react. It’s the same setups too, with Whiplash armoring up with the lifter (though adding some stops to the top of it to prevent Valkyrie climbing up) and Whiplash running their sharpened Mr. Cavity, repaired from the last time these two fought.
Another box rush of course, but Valkyrie turned away to prevent immediately getting thrust back and though bumping the wall, could at least get out towards the middle of the arena, while getting harassed by Whiplash running into the weapon once, twice, thrice, the fourth time actually getting Valkyrie to sail and to tip over after colliding with the wall. The now-overcutter was still spinning and though Whiplash could corral, a lift looked like a poor choice because something went flying off, and I’m tempted to say it was a piece of the lifter. But the lifter looked fine, as seen by continuing to manhandle Valkyrie, and after a rewatch it looked like it was a piece of Valkyrie’s front armor. So there was damage in addition to Whiplash cornering and lifting and trying to pin in the corner, with Valkyrie upright on its wheels, then grinding into the new floor right in the corner.
Somehow the weapon wasn’t totally shot as while Whiplash tried to stick Valkyrie in the screws it spun back up. And as an overcutter it was above the plow and the tabs, trying to grind away at the Whiplash lifter or find an edge and take it off. Instead Valkyrie almost took off a piece of the screws and flew over Whiplash and stuck the landing just long enough for Whiplash to put it back in the screws, flip it over, the other screws, flip it over. Valkyrie repelled a lift with its weapon and yes, went back to the screws. When it got off the screws Whiplash flipped it back over and actually got the lifter stuck in the weapon to pop Valkyrie in the screw slot. Fortunately they reversed to get her off, but that just meant more of Whiplash continuing to try to stick Valkyrie in the screws for good. Ultimately they were unable and it went to the judges as Whiplash emitted a single sizzle of smoke. Probably a hot motor after three minutes of driving Valkyrie all over the place.
Damage: Maybe the plume makes it 4-1 and not 5-0.
Aggression: 3-0
Control: 3-0
Once again, Whiplash wins this one by unanimous decision. A quarterfinal date with Hydra awaits.
19. Shatter! vs. 30. Mammoth
Shatter!: 3-1 (W, KO 2:12 vs. Ghost Raptor; L, JD 2-1 vs. Malice; W, JD 3-0 vs. Captain Shrederator; R32–W, KO 1:59 vs. Lock-Jaw)
Mammoth: 3-1 (W, KO 2:17 vs. HUGE; L, KO 1:36 vs. HyperShock, W, JD 3-0 vs. Deadlift; R32–W, JD 2-1 vs. Copperhead)
These two teams fought at Robot Ruckus at Orlando Maker Faire some time back, but they are different iterations of robots and it’s a much smaller arena than the BattleBox. So I’m excited to see what happens.
Mammoth looked to control and push with its weapon and getting damage when needed. Apart from knocking off the vinyl who knew what they could do, but a well-timed launch while Shatter! brought the hammer down meant that the Brooklyn bot had to self-right, meaning Mammoth could come in and continue to push and all Shatter! could do is try to hit the side. (Pay attention to that hit on the left side though.)
But one chance was all it took. A misfire from Mammoth meant the hammer fired true, and it was a chain snipe. So with that Mammoth’s weapon was out of service. Now Shatter could hit that middle of the weapon (if it didn’t get caught and flip itself over). Mammoth did all it could do to continue the smother while getting poked in the eye and win the pushing battle. And it was, pinning Shatter!, which while firing was getting caught in the weapon and flipping itself over fairly frequently. Other times it was hitting the wheel guards and puncturing them. So yeah, either way here, as Mammoth pushed and pushed and slammed Shatter! into the wall side first, and then the hammer wasn’t firing, which meant it was a pushing match. Interesting technique by Adam Wrigley, wedging Shatter by the side and pushing that way, probably to get more surface area to push. It worked to get Mammoth on a killsaw, as it went to the judges. And as the buzzer sounded and Mammoth turned its left wheel fell off. That pay attention shot? It cracked the axle and it finally paid off.
Damage: A chain snipe is probably worth slightly more than however Shatter!’s weapon was damaged, at the least because it was via the other robot’s primary weapon. But if it was the same, the wheel damage (and you could see the tire flatten before that) gives it to Shatter!. Those two things give me 4-1, rather than 3-2.
Control: Mammoth definitely wins control. The only question is 3-0 or 2-1. I say 3-0 as it cut the ring as well as it did.
Aggression: Both bots showed aggression in various ways. Mammoth did most of the pushing but Shatter! used its axe to get in there whenever it could. So it’s 2-1, and I’d say by the thinnest razor of margins, 2-1 Shatter!. All else equal, give it to the weapon.
So I have a very narrow 6-5 Shatter!. Meanwhile, by the real judges, Lisa Winter and Derek Young scored it for… Shatter! who gets the win by split decision.
Brooklyn in the finale!
6. End Game vs. 22. Rotator
End Game: 3-1 (W, KO 0:39 vs. Tombstone; L, KO 1:10 vs. Bloodsport; W, KO 0:53 vs. HyperShock; R32–W, KO 0:57 vs. Perfect Phoenix)
Rotator: 2-2 (L, JD 2-1 vs. Beta; L, JD 3-0 vs. Valkyrie; W, KO 2:45 vs. Big Dill; R32–W, KO 1:28 vs. JackPot)
This is an interesting fight. Rotator is a tank, while End Game has ended all of its fights super quick. We’ll see if something gives.
End Game is going with its wedges to try and tank whatever the hell Rotator’ll pull out. And that whatever the hell is the undercutter in front and a different set of forks (only two) in the rear.
And Rotator showed those forks to End Game at the start, then turned on a dime to get its weapon in play, a ploy we’ve seen Victor Soto execute this year. But Rotator got the angle a little wrong and nearly got knocked out of the arena for it, instead just losing bits of metal. Rotator countered but the gyro actually helped End Game as Rotator missed it and End Game ripped off one of the forks. Rotator circled to look for an opening and End Game went weapon to weapon. It didn’t work as well as hoped as they lost one of their weapon belts (they have four though), and then the whole apparatus as the two went weapon to weapon again. (Jack Barker mentioned that the weapon was actually bent.)
Meanwhile Rotator was still spinning. Well, I guess End Game underestimated Rotator’s weapon at their own peril and now they’d have to respond by being the control bot, but Rotator could get away enough to spin up. Yes, it was into the wedge, but it still counts.
Also counting is Rotator getting punted off the drivers’ booths, somewhere around Victor Soto’s face. Yes, of course there’s a fuck-ton of Lexan there, but it still has to be terrifying. Even more impressive, it still spun, though one more recoil flipped Rotator over into overcutter mode.
But they kept tanking the hits even as Peter Abrahamson noted that it could be worst-case scenario for the weaponless End Game… but Rotator’s weapon, from all that’s kept it going, crapped out. Beta didn’t do it, Valkyrie didn’t do it, but End Game did. So it went back to a pushing match where End Game probably had the advantage… if they didn’t stray under Rotator’s pulverizer. End Game responded with a scoop via the wedge and a hammer in kind. It went to the judges and it would be tough to call.
Damage: Rotator wins damage. They did the damage to End Game’s weapon. The forks count for something, but not as much. So the question is 3-2 or 4-1 Rotator? First glance I went 3-2, but re-watching the way Rotator’s weapon just died… I think I still go 3-2. When the weapons both worked Rotator definitely lost some armor chunks.
Control: It was pretty even on control, but I’d give it to End Game for controlling the beginning and the end. The middle was more split. 2-1.
Aggression: At initial watch I gave this 2-1 End Game, but watching it again I may be inclined to go the other way, 2-1 Rotator. When they were spinning it wasn’t End Game charging with an almost reckless abandon and Rotator did have its moments with the weapon.
That changes my decision from 6-5 End Game to 6-5 Rotator. And wouldn’t you know it, another split decision. This time Lisa Winter and Derek Young went for… End Game with the split decision win.
Man, Victor Soto could not get a break this year.
So, my theory was right. Buuuut, Mike Gellatly mentioned (via their watch party on NoFilterNetwork) they started filming Bounty Hunters during the round of 32. So… maybe I had it reversed?
Anyway, we have the finale. Let’s do some final matchups:
Hydra vs. Whiplash: I don’t know why, but I think Matt Vasquez can Crazy Taxi his way around this one. Maybe it’s because Hydra seems to hit every seam, and that sounds like a dangerous proposal.
Black Dragon vs. Ribbot: Ribbot’s managed to out-sturdy a lot of robots. They can’t do that with Black Dragon, regardless of the weapon they use.
SawBlaze vs. Tantrum: Tantrum has a lot of front armor but I don’t see that puncher mechanism faring well against the hammer-saw.
End Game vs. Shatter!: Good news: Bots FC is selling their jerseys, fully customizable, and I’m totally gonna get one! I asked whether, if they were to win the Giant Nut, there would be a star on top of their logo like after winning the World Cup, or better yet, for the sport, a nut. They have not responded. Bad news: I don’t actually think it’s going to happen.
My semifinals:
Black Dragon vs. Whiplash: Black Dragon wins the ground game and I think they’re driven well enough to at least neutralize Whiplash’s driving advantage.
End Game vs. SawBlaze: End Game’s advantage over Witch Doctor is that it actually has a wedge and forks to neutralize SawBlaze’s ground advantage, or at least make it less. But the top armor’s a bit sus, so finals for SawBlaze it is!
Final: Black Dragon vs. SawBlaze: Ground game wins, Jamo is a hell of a driver, so… seems reasonable.
My apologies for getting this wrong in advance.
We’ll also have some polls for Fight and KO/Hit of the Year next week because the Beaties are around the corner. And with that, see you next week!
Every week I see this series and try to remember to go watch this, but never do. Stooopid goldfish memory.
The full season should be available on Discovery Go.
> Ribbot scores its second upset with a KO in 1:34 and a Fight of the Year candidate.
I don’t agree with this at all. Any fight that ends with someone getting counted out for crabwalking is a letdown.
As I mentioned earlier, I feel like Rotator got jobbed. They broke their opponent’s weapon first, and that should count for a lot more than it apparently did.